Flying players in for the summer only

[peterfrancis]

I totaley agree I think the league have got to look into this a bit more.The club I think you are refering to has found them jobs and the word is that one of them even played Orange Free State cricket which I think is a little bit higher level than village cricket.Another team which came bottom of Div 5 lastyear now top of league with a lot of overseas players this is giving a fasle picture to our leagues what happens if they all go home and don't come back the next season these clubs could be promoted and relegated every other season COME ON LEAGUE TAKE A GOOD LOOK INTO THIS>

[pieman]

I agree that rule 15c should cover any of the issues raised. Surely at our standard of cricket the key qualification is that all players should be members of their respective clubs and pay their annual subs. If, as is suggested, a club is finding employment for their players, then the reality of the situation is that these players are professionals and so may be in breach of this rule.

But if players apply to be members of any club in the league in the same manner as anyone else then I don't really see the difference between their coming from Cape Town or from Carlisle, for example. I would certainly hesitate before making too much of an issue of players all coming from the village - seems a bit too close to Royston Vasey for me ;-)

[andrewshields]

I am chairman of the club (South Loughton) referred to in a previous post and would like to make several points about 'our' South African players. All are fully paid-up club members; all pay full match subs; payment of players would be impossible for us, as well as totally unacceptable to all our members.

We are situated in a part of Essex where SEVEN of the ten Shepherd Neame Premier League clubs are within a five-mile radius, plus numerous lower-division Shepherd Neame and Morrant League clubs: this makes player recruitment and retention a massive challenge. About three years ago, young South Africans began coming over to this country in large numbers with many settling in parts of east London. They are teachers, craftmen or work in the City. Leytonstone and Leyton, where most of our South Africans live, have large populations (due to the availability of cheaper rented accommodation), a South African bar, shop, touch rugby league, etc. These guys are here primarily to work and earn money but they also want to play cricket. They are prevented by the rules of the Sheperd Neame League from playing for its clubs (ie they are not England-qualified or a registered overseas player). I met the first of our South Africans in the street when he was returning, looking very dejected, from a certain Premier League club having been told he couldn't play for them. He was under the impression that he wouldn't be able to play any cricket in this country. What was I to do: tell him he couldn't play for us either? The Shepherd Neame is an ECB Premier League: the criteria for its players are imposed by the ECB. We are not an ECB Premier League.

As a result, we have, over the last three years, actively targeted this South African population. The publications, websites and bars in which we have advertised are no secret: anyone with a bit of imagination can locate them and do the same as us. All of these guys are over here for several years: we as a club would not want to take on players who were only here for one summer as that would be counter-productive. Interestingly, the first of the South Africans who joined us would now qualify to play in the Shepherd Neame League due to residency: however, they have no wish to do so.

We are an ECB accredited 'focus club', and hold Clubmark: as a result, we have to run our club to extremely high ethical and practical standards, and our status is dependent on us continuing to do so.

Our South African members play alongside those whose ethnic origins are in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka: this is representative of multi-ethnic society on the edges of London. Our club is accessible from east London by tube, so it is obvious that we are able to recruit players from a wider social and ethnic background than other clubs. Indeed, for at least the last 20 years we have had 'overseas' players in our membership as they come to live, work and in some cases permanently settle in east London and Essex.

Our South African members contribute enormously to the club, way beyond their performances on the pitch. They are reliable, enthusiastic (the increase in our membership means we have been able to create a Saturday 3rd XI and run two Sunday XIs so all club members get as much cricket as they want), always pay their way, spend a lot of money at the bar and, most important, have helped to create a culture where our crop of talented young players can thrive. Rather than prolong this debate, I would prefer to point out that a 15-year-old opened the batting for our 1st XI yesterday and scored 83, and a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old opened the bowling for the 2nd XI and took four wickets between them. None are South African; all are products of our junior programme.

Finally, we WERE approached during the close-season by a cricketer looking to play for us on condition that he paid no annual or match subs. He was English, and he came from another club in our league.

edited by: andrewshields, Jul 05, 2004 - 08:54 AM

[andrewshields]

Just to go back to the original point, the allegation being made by thomaswp is potentially quite serious. By checking his profile and looking at the fixtures, I presume I know the identity of the 'offending' club. Has his allegation been made directly to them? I'd like to hear their response. The implication is that these guys are being 'flown in' primarily to play cricket, in which case they must have gone through the ECB's work permit procedure. Is this true? If their 'employment' involves coaching, then there will have been several very strict criteria they must have met.

I would view with a degree of scepticism the claims made about where, and at what level, people have played before. In our previous league, which had a more metropolitan bias, we frequently encountered players who had apparently played for 'Pakistan Under-19s'. This usually turned out to be embroidery of a very partial truth.

Finally, I agree that Rule 15c could do with tightening, and we might want to include the issue of payment of players (or clubs which field players who are not paid-up club members). However, recruitment is a competitive issue and those clubs which devise legitimate, targeted, imaginative recruitment strategies (including my own) should be applauded rather than censured.

[andrewshields]

Very well explained Dave. Yes, we're all picking up plenty of Afrikaans, too!

I am sure you also resent unfounded comments being made about your club and its members. We too dislike reading snide comments on opposing clubs' websites about the composition of our teams, or captains saying 'If that's the way you want to run your club' after games, the implication being that we are doing something underhand. Hence my two prevoious very long posts.

I think this particular matter should now be closed, although Rule 15c may still need tightening.

[andrewshields]

Another good post, ginster! We at South Loughton are, of course, aware that the current crop of South Africans we have will probably go back at some point. But now that we have built links with this community of potential cricketers, our aim is to develop a production line! That's how it's worked over the last three years, and unless they suddenly stop coming to London then I see no reason why it won't continue.

More generally, what we've had to do as part of the Clubmark and ECB focus club programmes is to develop a strategic approach to the development of our club. This means actually thinking about, for example, how we recruit and retain players (and develop juniors), and putting the mechanisms in place to achieve our targets. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the vast number of clubs in our area means we have to do this in order simply to survive but, by being visible as a well-organised, structured and dynamic club with a formal development plan, we are now recruiting quality (non-South African!) players who like the way we operate.

I appreciate that the situation is different in the villages, but it's still possible for smaller, more geographically isolated clubs to do the same kind of strategic thinking - just make it relevant to their situation. It's interesting following the debate on Newport's website about their possible move to Quendon: they are now thinking strategically, and I hope it all works out well for them. I would urge any club keen to start moving in this direction to have a meeting with their Board development officer: ours has been fantastic, and has been instrumental in helping to create the impetus we're now enjoying.

[andrewshields]

Fair point, but how would we police it? We don't really have a way of comparing standards across countries. Also, going back to an earlier post of mine, the situation would be even more difficult when it comes to players from the Asian sub-continent since half the Asian players around east London claim (or have it claimed on their behalf) that they played for Pakistan Under-19s!!

[andrewshields]

The Fixture List is a very useful website in other ways, too. I've made a couple of fixtures from the vacant dates section, which attracts many clubs/teams that aren't members of the Club Cricket Conference: ideal if you're seeking weaker opponents for extra XIs. And as it's free, it also saves you the CCC fixture bureau fee.

[andrewshields]

Dede, could you just clarify your role? In the case of my own club (South Loughton) we're 100 per cent in favour of you guys playing (subject to Rule 15c), but do you act as some sort of agent for South Africans looking to find a club?

I'd like to point out that this is not how we have recruited our Saffies. We've used more conventional advertising on websites and in newspapers, plus word of mouth and invitations to nets. And some of ours are British passport holders, others have already exceeded the ECB's two-year residency qualification so they're no longer classed as 'overseas players', while some are on five-year work permits rather than two.

[ginster]

Just a thought on that last post regarding whether or not when they leave the team will be weakened. I think its fairly obvious that that would be the case, as they have both been having good seasons, but I think that as any club would tell you, you have to take the opportunites to get people playing when they come along. As Dave mentioned, being a club in a small village, means that we don't get a lot of young players, these tend to start off orginally at a few clubs who run successful youth teams. Recruiting players is always difficult so you have to take what you can get. You shoudl bear in mind as well that in the last two years, Roding have lost at least 4 regular first team players. One, a youngster, graduating to better standard cricket, his dad to retirement ( and to drive him around), and two others who moved away ( I'm one of them, now living in manchester but have played a couple of times when I'm home - is this wrong, as I'm no longer a local? Should I not join a team up here, 'cos if I move back down south it would affect their team?). Who knows who else will have joined the club in two years? Or who will have moved away - maybe county teams can plan long term for squad development, but I think most people would agree that at our level, just putting out the best team you can, from week to week, is as much as anyone can hope for.

cheers,

Andy

[ginster]

Interestingly as well, being one of the first clubs in the league to have a web presence, I have also had requests through that from Asian players every year, to come and play for us as our "professional", the first time it happened, it was a bit fo a shock but we had a good laugh at these cricket "CVs" . All of which had the relevant players having played in some version of represntative cricket or relevant first class competition.

[ginster]

Well - I'm sure that wasn't a serious post ;-) , but if you do want to increase the exposure of your club to outsiders, I'd suggest putting your clubs details on this website :The Fixture List (http://www.thefixturelist.org.uk/cricket.shtml)

As it provides listing for clubs all round the country, and people who know about it use it while looking for club sin a certain area. - as far as I am concerned anything that could increase the clubs exposure is a good thing.

cheers,

Andy

[ginster]

Hi Andrew,
I don't think its that official, all Matt means, is that, for example, this year, our two boys on visas decided that they were going to be coming over, got their visas, then asked matt about somewhere to play, as they knew that he had just come back from England, so might have a bit of information. Matt then put them in touch with us knowing, as he did, what fun we are to play with :-D , so that they could come and play. Basically, just word of mouth, but in SA, rather than over here.

Matt, correct me if I'm wrong!!

cheers,

Ginster

[pauly462]

I have found the same thing here as well , this year i had several application from india and Pakistan all of a ? proffesional basis, they must look though the league site via the web and approach as a general email, and hopefully getting some one to reply with an offer, i guess they dont now the size and playing strength of the leagues / clubs
only to confuse them with something like the Lancashire leagues etc which the pro's get involved with.
Paul Smith HBCC

[thomaswp]

We just lost to a team which seems to have flown in three South Africans just for the cricket season. They are all fine players and were the difference betwen the sides. Six of the opposing team played no part in the game other than fielding. Apparently they will go home for the winter, then come back next year. Given that we were fielding a team of players who all live in the village I was wondering what others in this forum think.

I do not want this to sound like sour grapes - everyone is entitled to their fun and they beat us fair and square. I would have no qualms if these guys had settled in the area for a year or so. I just wonder whether this is in the spirit of running a local league of mostly village sides?

[thomaswp]

If he is playing a better standard of cricket in the Winter, then they would be in breach of rule 15c:

"15c. No player shall be eligible to represent a club if, during the current season they have or shall be playing at a 'significantly higher standard of cricket' on a regular basis. If clarification is required it is incumbant of the side, who this player is representing, to established eligiblity prior to the match. (Any breach of this rule could result in loss / awarding of points)."



edited by: thomaswp, Jul 04, 2004 - 08:50 PM

[thomaswp]

Thanks for the clarification Dave. And for the record I have no problem other than the fact that you were far too good for us on Saturday!

It is an interesting debate though. The rumour mill goes overboard about your Saffers - I imagine I would never have posted if you had lost all your games. Did any of your boys play for the Pakistan U-19s? ;-)

[thomaswp]

I have also had requests through that from Asian players every year, to come and play for us as our "professional"

Damn! What am I doing wrong!?!

[thomaswp]

Thanks for the pointer - that should come in very useful if we start trying out some 3rd XI fixtures next year.

[djbbb]

i play for theydon and we also have a large (in both numbers and size!!) amount of sa players. Most of these guys are full time residents now and a couple are here on 2 years visas. My experience of these guys are that most are young and athletic and have been well groomed at cricket back home and are all very keen to play. All pay there membership and match fees and usually like to spend some time in the bar drinking heavily.
There are plenty of players around who would like to be paid to play but i cant see how any team in our league would be able to do so.
I cant see how rule 15c should apply to a player that has played overseas in the winter unless he is being paid to play by the club here.
Ive only come accross 2 overseas players in 4 years in this league which i dont think is too bad having played essex league cricket.

[alexfrancis]

I Think that all the messages in this forum are good and the web site has given team members the chance to air their views and not stir rumours between the clubs.

I do believe however that the 'non english' players might have an effect on the teams if or when they do leave? Just to pose a question: Do people think that when the visa's for the players run out that the side will still be that much of a force or do we think that they could return back to there old ways? if this is the case will it actually do the club or the league any good?

Any thoughts?

[alexfrancis]

That is a good point, i think that forum has been slighty been misunderstood, i know that i certainly have not said that you must live or come from the village we all know that it is impossible. Attracting players is always hard but effort with local schools should be made. Our club has gone form a first team only to three teams on both Sat and Sun. We are competeing with the main town side and all the surrounding villages but have really tried to bring players through.

Our first team is made up of 9 colts that have been nurchered throught the colts development section. Myself being included. I have also been included with running the colts section and know that we went and put local ads in schools and had open days and joint memberships for adults and colts. It is the effort made not where you are situated?

[alexfrancis]

I think the underlying fact is that you have very overseas who are doing well.

The likely hood is that they probably do play a higher standard back home, what i am getting at is last year i left Bishop's Stortford where i was 1stXI keeper for three years. I left half way through the season. I was asked by the league to submit a written document stating that i had left Bishop's Stortford for good and had no intention to play for the following year and was going to secure my cricketing future at Hockerill. This was becuase they saw the herts Saracens Div 1 a higher league and therefore "thought" i would be too good and give an unfair advantage to Hockerill.

Now surely if i had to go through that moving from one club to another in the same county surely there should be something inplace for the future about the level of cricket that incoming players have played at?

This statement is not an argumentative statement just a thought?

Thoughts?

[alexfrancis]

i see that, but can you now see why other clubs are becoming annoyed, Hockerill look at it from that point of view because it has been an issue to us. how we police it i dont know. it is going to be a problem for only a certain few players. No one can grumble with players that have set up home and married, we have one ourselves. the difference if one season or maybe even two season visa's. It is a never ending arguement, but something that gives a good debate.

[DaveBardell]

Time to put a few facts straight as rumours etc seem to be spreading fast. We would in fact have had 4 Saffers playing for White Roding on saturday but 1 was mysteriously injured at Henley Regatta on friday in a 'drinking accident'.
Of our 4 Saffers, 2 have lived in the UK for some time and were married here to good English breeding stock, 1 of these we got through a recruitment business run by one of our players and the other ( the drinking one who had a hip replacement in his 20's) being a mate of his.
The 2 other lads are both over here on 2 year working visas and both intend to see out the whole of their visas as these are apparently only made available to them once.
They are both working over here and are paid up club members paying their match fees like everybody else.Their is no way that a club such as ours could afford justify subsidising plyers when all of the work we do and money we raise as a Social & Sports club is done on a voluntary basis.
We got the connection for these lads through a friend of one of our UK based Saffers who played with them in their club cricket back home - their club cricket back home is of a pretty good standard but certainly they never got to representative level - until yesterday against some typical sunday pies neither of them had ever scored a ton before in any level of cricket and 1 of them rarely bowls at home so lets not build them up as superheroes - in fact as they rarely get back from clubbing much before 4pm any friday night they are just typical 21 year olds having a good time.
As to the suggestion made by someone that everybody should live in the Village to play, this would leave us with only 3 cricketers and one of them is 65 - you guys who have clubs in or on the outskirts of towns with big populations and schools to get players from should consider yourselves lucky!!
I'm off now to practise my afrikaans!!
Dave

[andywebster]

Clubs should be very wary of these email approaches. Due to the stringent (don't laugh) immigration laws in the EU, these approaches are often made by individuals who use their letter of introduction from an unsuspecting cricket club when their real intention is to get into the UK and then disappeari into the black economy . Agents may be a maligned breed in other sports but they afford cricket clubs an element of security/protection from potential exploitation by those who might try to get to the UK using cricket as a vehicle. :-O

[dede]

Hi guys i am the contact that white roding have ,over in S.A ,the guys who are now playing there all have 2 year working holiday visas wich is essential for guys to come over to England with .most guys come to me when they have these visas and ask me for opinons of whether i can put them in touch with a club that would let them play as lets face it most of the Saffa youths come over to work and make some cash as you all know what the exchange rate is .Can you imagine being an 21 year old not been able to play sport very hard not so .I have played for varios clubs around England,some as the club pro others for fun eg roding in 2003 in all i played 4 games for them ,come on guys give the saffas a break its hard enough having to leave your home in order to make a decent living let them play a bit of sport too

matt dedekind

[dede]

Ginster ,how you doing ,you have hit the nail on the head ,Andrew i am by no way an agent , just someone who spent a bit of time in England like most saffas youth do ..hope this clears it for you ;-)