Three strikes and you're out

[paul]

This matter is currently being discussed by the committee and a ruling will be given before the weekends games. When the decision is made it will be posted on the site. Until then please be patient and watch this space.

[paul]

The league committee has made a decision with regards this. The Decision in detail has been posted on the front page Read the full article here. (http://www.hecl.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=95&topic=7)

Please post your comments here but keep in mind that this is a difficult time for all the clubs involved.

The net result would seem to be that Little Munden now have to win AND deprive Braughing of bonus points to avoid relegation. Braughing now can stay up with bonus points alone. Good luck to both teams.

Hockerill 2nd XI have also suffered in terms of league standing but are safe from relegation.

[paul]

Hmmm


Paul the webmaster says were safe ,take alook at the points again

Yes, it seems I completely mis-read the implications of a Little Munden victory. In that event Hockerill need to equal or better the bonus points scored by Braughing. Correct.

I can only apologize for my late night confusion and wish everyone the best of luck in their matches on Saturday.

I view the whole situation as regrettable. The rules as they stand at the moment make this the only way to deal with the situation. I'm sure a few clubs will be suggesting some changes to rule 11b.

[paul]

One of the good things about the website is obviously that these things can be discussed. I know that the league are keen to hear everyones views expressed here.

One thing I was going to wait until the end of the season to mention. The software that we use to keep the site updated is also capable of retrospectively looking at the impact of rule changes with regard to points systems and alteration. Once the season has ended and the dust settled I fully intend to examine the implication of many of the proposals mentioned here and in the threads about alteration to the points system. The main reason being to examine the implication of such changes. It takes a bit of time to do, so I'm sure you can appreciate that I want to do it in the close season.

I initially intend to publish reports that the committee request when they look into the proposed changes to points systems. Once I have them done I hope to look into the options described here. So please let me have your serious proposals. One thing I'm fairly certain of. Whatever the method used to calculate rule 11b not every club will be in favour. There are inevitably going t be winners and losers.

[peterfrancis]

After coming off the ground at 7.32pm on saturday and having beaten Cloghams in a hard game it was great to know that we had made ourselves safe from relegation.coming onto the league website at 6.45pm on wednesday 25th we now find that we can still go down.Paul the webmaster says were safe ,take alook at the points again.Surley with one game to go it would have been better to give there oppents the points and leave all the results as they were.I agree with what Andrewshields says about only taking points away before X amount of games have been played.Oh yes because we new we were safe on saturday night and this weekend is bank hoilday ,depleated side

Thanks Peter Francis Hockerill 2nd XI skipper.

[Roasty]

May I first pass my sympathies to any members of Henham who may visit the site. It’s never nice to hear of a club struggle for numbers, and being thrown out of the league (when the penalty for not putting out a side for the 3rd time in the year must have been know) shows a deep problem within the club. However, it is good to see that our committee are strong enough to implement the rule. Theydon Bois were asked to leave the Essex League in ’97 when we couldn’t put out a regular 3rd XI. This was after several years of putting out 6 XI’s on a weekend. The problem for numbers hits most clubs. Although TB rarely have a team with less than 11 players in it, we rely heavily on our colts every week. I look forward to my game of cricket every week. If teams cry off then there should be a punishment.
As for a rule change I would say no. Don’t complicate matters. Leave it as is. I agree will all that Ginster has to say on the matter.

Oh - and by the way 'Come on u Hammers!'
:evil:

edited by: Roasty, Aug 25, 2004 - 04:24 PM

[andrewshields]

By my reckoning it's very complicated! Henham beat Braughing and were also rained off against them; they beat and then were abandoned against Little Munden; and they beat Ardeley Walkern and are due to play them this Saturday.

Since Rule 11b states that any team failing to fulfil three fixtures WILL be required to withdraw from the league, ie there's no debate about it, will three teams be promoted from Div 5 and a vacancy created there? That makes it very interesting for Potter Street, Bengeo and Newport!

I feel sorry for Henham. It's a nice place to play, but they've really struggled over the last couple of seasons. They pipped us for promotion two years ago when they played out of their skins in a 'winner takes all' game at the very end of the season, and their captain reckoned that if they'd lost, that would have been the end of the club. I hope they can regroup.

[andrewshields]

I agree with the decisions taken in this instance but I wonder if we might want to make slight revisions for the future since the decisive 'third strike' is inevitably going to come in August when holidays start to affect availability - but the season is almost over. The impact of expunging a club's record so late in the season can be dramatic.

After, say, 15 games of an 18-game season, would it not be better to retain the results that have happened and award walkovers in the remaining fixtures? Before 15 games, expunge the records. This would prevent the situation that has arisen now where clubs' points and positions have been altered with virtually no time to do anything about it; my system would mean that, with three games or fewer left, no club's points and position would be altered through no fault of their own.

The decision taken may also have an effect on the individual awards. As Henham only had one game to play, might it not be fairer to allow runs/wickets/catches in the games against them? Again, 15 games could be used as the cut-off point for this.

[andrewshields]

Well argued as ever, Ginster. I don't want to disagree because your thoughts are just as valid as mine, just taking a diffferent perspective. That's what this Forum should be all about: constructive debate.

It would be nice to hear from some of the affected clubs.

[andrewshields]

Holidays can wait?

For those of us with wives and young children, even getting time to play cricket is a bonus. Suggesting that we don't go on holiday because of cricket would mean instant divorce!!

Of course you're right about fulfilling fixtures. Let's hope this is an isolated incident. However, it's worth noting that four teams defaulted last Saturday, and two teams in Div 5 go into this weekend's game with two strikes already to their name.

We've debated the impact that a walkover can have on the end-of-season points and positions; don't forget that a defaulted fixture at any point in the season automatically gifts 26 points to the other side. What about wet days when all games in a division are cancelled but a team has cried off in midweek so their opponents get 26 points when everyone else has to settle for four?

[andrewshields]

I know the league management committee plan to assess the facilities of applicant clubs. This should be expanded to cover general suitability for league cricket - ie clubs applying should be able to make a case for their inclusion, which would take into account the number of playing members of the club.

I think this particularly applies to those clubs aiming to add 2nd and 3rd XIs to the league. Can they sustain these extra XIs on a weekly basis? My own club is now running a 3rd XI and while it would be easy, in a rush of enthusiasm, to enter Div 6 next year, realism has to take priority. Will we be able to field three XIs next May if Orient or West Ham make the play-offs? Or in late August when everyone's on holiday?

[andrewshields]

What I meant to say was 'WHEN Orient and West Ham reach the play-offs'... We're known for our supreme optimism at South Loughton...

[andrewshields]

I confess I hadn't looked closely at the revised points and permutations, so didn't realise Hockerill II had been dragged into the relegation battle. This is particularly cruel as on Saturday they're playing a team that needs victory to gain promotion - and Hockerill must gain at least six points to secure safety without relying on the other result going their way. As Peter Francis says, Hockerill thought they were safe - and availability has been affected as a result. I don't think this is acceptable.

Peter's post merely confirms my belief that the system I outlined earlier would be fairer. While I agree with Ginster that awarding walkovers in the final sixth (three games) of the season could give points to clubs that they otherwise might not have gained, it seems more accceptable to do this than to take away points that have been legitimately gained over the first five-sixths (15 games) of the season - thus landing Hockerill in the mess with virtually no time to do anything about it.

There's one further clincher - and it could happen this weekend in Div 5 where two sides have already defaulted twice. What would happen if a side's third default came in the last game of the season? Would their results also be expunged from the records? If so, this would lead to a situation where the league table was changed after the season was finished - and a quick glance at results suggests Thundridge's performances in particular would have an impact on the promotion race. Might it be worth the league management committee checking in advance whether the offending clubs will be able to fulfil their fixtures and avoid this scenario?

[andrewshields]

Aren't most things about any league set-up arbitrary? Why 26 points for a win and not 25? Why 200 runs for five batting points and not 250? Why 4pm on Sunday as the deadline for results reporting and not 2pm? Why, in the debate about a cut-off point at which 1st XI players can't play for the 2nd XI, 80 per cent of matches rather than 70? Inevitably there will be some who disagree with any numerical figure chosen, but when such a decision is made it surely stops being arbitrary and becomes generally accepted?

I know we're starting to split hairs here and Ginster and I are unlikely to find common ground, but 15 games - exactly five-sixths of the season - does seem a logical point at which to institute my proposal.

Anyone else got thoughts?

And I agree entirely about the standard of intelligent, friendly debate here!

[ginster]

I had a quick look at the table.... as they only won 2 games, the two teams that they beat would be the main benficiaries, as everyone else has maximum points from them. These are Ardelely Walkern and Braughing, so it might make the relegation issue a bit complicated.... probably ought to be confirmed before the weekend, so people know where they stand.

[ginster]

I'm not sure that I agree with that.

You can look at this two ways, one, the effect of expunging results on the current table, but you should also bear in mind this: The situation will no doubt arise, where a team that is battling for relegation, would be coming up against the "strike out" team. This would no doubt have been a close, important game, but by automatically awarding a walkover, you could propel a team out of a relegation position, and into safety, where otherwise they may not have won.

I think the only fair way to do it is to keep it as it is now - I know that this leaves little time to "do anythign about it", but my point would be that its not the last threee games that define your season, its the whole season. Are you suggesting that teams try harder if they know that they're battling relegation? Maybe they should just put 100% in week in week out?

I don;t think you can put an arbitrary limit on when you would switch from expunging to keeping results, cos it would only bring up debate as to why that particular number of games were chosen, in the event that it could change a league position.

Thats my thoguhts, anyway. Feel free to disagree. :-D

[ginster]

Surely you'll be expecting West Ham to get Automatic promotino, so obviating the need for play-offs?

[ginster]

I do sympathise with Hockerill's plight in this case, however, a knee jerk reaction wouldn't be sensible. You've got an ideal case in point, as to why there's a problem with rule 11b as it stands, but you need to consider what would happen if you changed it.

Consider that there was a situation where there are two clubs battling for relegation with team A 1 point ahead. its coming to the last game, and team A is due to play against a team that is kicked out due to rule 11b. They now get 26 points, and so the team B is automatically relegated. Imagine how team B would feel about this now, especially if team A had lost to the kicked out team earlier in the season.

Its just a reversal of what happens this year. If teams are removed from teh league, you're always going to have problems, and I think you just have to accept it. If you take away all the results, then the teams that lost to the team benefit, if you give walkovers, then the teams that haven;t played them yet benfit. Swings and roundabouts if you ask me.

Good luck to all concerned on saturday.

[ginster]

Whilst I agree with Andrew Shields' sentiment, I still can't agree with picking an arbitrary date where you change how you deal with a team leaving the league. The big thing being, you could have a case, where if it had been 4 weeks, rather than 3. then the positions could change, and then you'd have the affected clubs on here, saying "why is it 3 weeks, why not 4?" And there wouldn;t be any justification. As it stands, I think you have to remove all results, as at the end of the season, this is the only way that leaves the league in a way that reflects the performances of the teams in it against each other. As I said before, you're always goign to get someone who gets the short straw if a team leaves, but I think the simplest way is best, which is wha t we have at the moment

Good debate on here as always though.

edited by: ginster, Aug 26, 2004 - 11:16 AM

[ginster]

Andrew,
Absolutely agree with you, and it illustrates my point brilliantly.

the seemingly arbitrary nature of the points allocation in the league, leads to constant debate on what is the best points system. Wouldn't it be easier to not have an arbitrary number, so avoiding the debate entirely.

As Andrew, says, I think both our view points are fairly clear to all concerned now :-D , so I'll clear the floor for other contributors.


cheers,

Andy

[tro]

I have to agree with Ginsters comments on this. At the beginning of the season every team is given its fixture card with its dates for fixtrues etc etc. If you are a member of a cricket club, and you really want to play, then surely your holidays can wait?? :-?

I am part of Hockerill but not involved in the 2nd XI setup, but i know, that if they had been dragged back down into the relgation mire of that division, they would of been severely upset after a well deserved win on saturday. But as it happens they have been now cleared of relegation. Its only fitting i feel that the two sides battling against the one relegation spot are playing each other this weekend, as there futures lie entirely in their own hands.

:-)

[tro]

Thats a very good point.

As the league is expanding maybe more stringent rules should have to be adhered to regarding qualification on entering? I mean, a small club, with say 13 playing members, is always going to struggle to field a side week in-week out because of say holidays, injuries, illness etc.

Im not saying that clubs with only a handful of full time members shouldnt be allowed to enter the league, beacuse everyone is welcome, but if a side cannot fulfill fixtures the only people losing out are the opposition, and some people as you say Andrew, dont get alot of leeway to play!!!

I guess what im rambling about is newly entering teams having a minimum amount of members before being allowed to join to end the confusion and disappointment?

[tro]

As a West Ham supporter my self, i feel it is safe to say that i have more chance of being drafted in to Englands upcoming South Africa touring squad as a specialist bowler! :lol:

[andywebster]

I am aware that henham have struggled over the past couple of seasons and note they conceded their third game of the season last Saturday. I just wonder the benefit of invoking rule 11b at this stage of the season and whether the voiding of all results would effect the table.

Any views??

[andywebster]

If Orient and West Ham make next years play-offs I will personally pay for 11 "saffers" to fly in and subsidise your playing needs...........or had you already though of that!!


8-)