Points system...discuss.

[paul]

This whole thorny issue was discussed at length last year as you rightly say. For a starting point for the whole debate you may want to read THIS first. (http://www.hecl.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=7&19). From there any proposed changes need to be put to the committee and seconded by another club. The league would then discuss the options at the league rules meeting and put it to the vote at the AGM.

So, lets here those ideas.

[paul]

Wow guys, I knew this debate was going to be as vigorous as last year but it's really taken off again. Still that has to be a good thing. With my hat on and not as "website admin" here"s my 102cents

@prowsie

As our league grows and teams are located further apart, the weather experienced by some may not be experienced by others. The geographic coverage of the league has not grown. The committee in fact rejected several clubs applications to join Division six this year because they fell outside our existing boundaries. This would likely remain the case, at least for the foreseeable future.


As the rules stand at the moment, you are almost better off losing a game by a considerable margin and collecting more points than having a game called off and only receiving 4 points. Correct. The criteria I believe should be based on, is the pitch safe to play on and is playing on the pitch likely to cause lasting damage effecting future fixtures.



I know in the past, divisions have been decided by whether a team has had a game canceled Do you mean abandoned or void? The only possible example that that may have applied to last year was promotion from Division 5 and that was only really a mathematical outcome.

@connolly

I feel that a more relevant debate is the bonus points awarded in a shortened game, as our 24 over game on Saturday was all or nothing. I agree, just that point was discussed in our dressing room this week as I negotiated the late start and overs with the opposition skipper. In event we didn't play but there will be occasions when we will and chasing bonus points is always an issue if you get the worst of the day.

@ginster

I seem to remember when this was discussed last year - as you say, at great length - you mentioned the possibility of trying some of the points systems out with last seasons results, Yes I did, both suggest it and did some work on it, but can't for the life of me find the resulting tables. I do remember that it made little or no difference to the final tables. As I said above the only possible change would have been to the promotion from division five. If you look closely at last years tables no club had a disproportional amount of games called off. I get the feeling that what ever system you define someone gains and someone loses out. Thats the very nature of the weather intervening and it will ever be so.

@djbbb

I know this next bit may seem a bit tricky but how about use of d/l method for rain affected games? :-O :-O :-O please don't even think about suggesting that. I have been blessed with the opportunity to be educated to a ridiculously high level in a very academic and pointless subject requiring quite perverse understanding of unique complex mathematical models, if I say so myself I was rather good at it too. The duckworth/loser method I cannot get a handle on nor do I want to. The weather has always played a part in cricket and to a certain extent it always will. The ability to take the disappointment of its effect on results is unique. The Duckworth/loser method is a classic example of what happens when you try to legislate for something that cannot be controlled and is in the hands of the gods. One thing I am sure of , our league has a unique appeal to many players and clubs because of its simple straight forward format. Lets not lose that.

Slip matches? ditto the above. Lets not over complicate the league and its admin. You have a very dedicated and active committee working on your behalf. Not least Bob who does the fixtures. I can just see his face if someone suggests he accommodate them as well:-x

Just to close and with my “Website admin” hat on.

Don't forget that if you want a change debated by the committee you need to propose it and have it seconded. Although this was debated at length last year no proposals were submitted I think this is in part due to the fact that this situation genearly occurs early in the season and is forgotten come the end of August and in part down to the current system working reasonably well....

Get the proposals in now if it really bugs you. Use this forum to solicit seconders and get it to the committee for the next meeting. I for one would lobby for debate on the point highlighted by connolly.

Phew got to be longest post in league website history, sorry

[andrewshields]

The small number of points awarded for a postponement is intended as an incentive to get games played, and I think that's a good idea in principle.

However, I totally agree that the geographical spread of the league means some clubs may suffer more than others with the weather. Although it rained in Loughton on Saturday and we had a short interruption, I was amazed so many games were postponed/abandoned (the Saracens Herts League seemed to be almost totallly washed out).

13 points apiece for a postponement seems fair, but what then about games that are started? 13 plus bonus points seems rather excessive, especially if a game is well advanced before it rains.

How about 8 apiece for a postpoment, then 8 plus bonus points for an abandonment? The most a team could then collect would be 18 – enough to avoid a sense of injustice and just far enough from 26 to keep the win as the ultimate aim.

[andrewshields]

Slip dates wouldn't work for clubs that have Saturday friendly fixtures after the league ends and a regular Sunday programme. Also, many of our Saturday players don't/can't play on Sundays, and I'm sure that's the same elsewhere.

[ginster]

Hi Paul,
I seem to remember when this was discussed last year - as you say, at great length - you mentioned the possibility of trying some of the points systems out with last seasons results, to see hwat effect the various ideas had? Did you ever get a chance to do this - is it still possible?

I just think that there will be lots of ideas, but without actually being able to apply them to some real results to trial the effects, its ll going to be the same as last time with lots of ideas and no conclusions?

cheers,

ginster

[Sammy]

I am with Conno on this one (and not just because he has tricky selection issues this weekend!!).

The emphasis must be on encouraging a game to be played, where this is possible, so cancellation must be only rewarded minimally. Our situation on Saturday is a case in point - where we got 3 points for playing, yet others got 4 points for no game - so 4 points can't be far wrong.

Prowsie - worth considering how you would feel if a crucial final league position was determined by 2 teams sharing the 26 points because the wicket was slightly damp and it suited them both to cancel. If league position is becoming so competitive, this would surely happen one day if the points system gave that incentive. Hence I am in favour of the incentive being to get games played - where possible.

Slip dates are an interesting thought, though. Could be complicated when there are, say, 3 or 4 games cancelled - which games would take priority if there were not enough dates? Anyone got any thoughts on how slip dates can work effectively?

[djbbb]

i would like to see 8 points for an cancelled game and 6 points plus bonus for an abondoned game.
I know this next bit may seem a bit tricky but how about use of d/l method for rain affected games?
Now i know everyone is going to say how do we do that so ive investigated. A pc program is available for £29.95 thats the easy bit, what the league would need is somebody available to call on a sat pm if the situation arose (this i guess is the hard part). Or each club could purchase the book (£5.95) and have some fun with calculators(from £1.99 batteries not inc!!!)
This would take away some of the problems that are happening with the weather and the expense isn't that great.

[djbbb]

hughesy i have no problems with the subs mind you i never went to uni!!! Just think of the fun roasty could have on a wet sat with d/l!! im sure most clubs have a similar person who is stats central :lol: (and thay all do a great job and we love them dearly!!)

[Hughsey]

Great idea Brett although as I remember it we seem to struggle regularly with calculating the correct level of subs money owed. I think the duckworth lewis method may prove more of a challenge to our players than the opposition bowling!

[connolly]

Oh Prowsie stop moaning!! we played and we only got three points we were desperate for an abandonment as that one point would have put us two points in front of Farnham.
In reality you have a point but as Paul has already eluded to this was discussed long and hard at the last AGM. If 13 points were on offer on Saturday I think both myself and Ben would have taken them and gone to the pub to watch the football.Which would not have been the correct decision.
This may lead to teams calling the games off to secure 13 points.
I feel that a more relvant debate is the bonus points awarded in a shortened game, as our 24 over game on Saturday was all or nothing.

[prowsie]

After a weekend of poor weather that was experienced by most of the league, i feel it appropriate to bring up the matter of the league points system. Firstly, i would like to state that im not posting this because my club (Farnham) suffered at the hands of the points system at the weekend, but to encourage some debate into the system to see if a better one can be resolved when the weather intervenes. As our league grows and teams are located further apart, the weather experienced by some may not be experienced by others.

Receiving just 4 points for an abandoned match does not seem to make sense to me, when 26 points are on offer for the winning team. I can't really understand that 4 ponits plus bonus points, when a match is abandoned mid way through, is logical either. Surely if no result is possible, then the points on offer should be halved between the 2 sides - 13 points each.

As the rules stand at the moment, you are almost better off losing a game by a considerable margin and collecting more points than having a game called off and only receiving 4 points.

Consider this, a team bowls first and takes 6 wickets whilst conceeding 250 runs and then only scores 100 when they bat. This equals 4 bonus points for a 150-run defeat...the same points as you get for an abandoned game. This surely cannot be fair. I know in the past, divisions have been decided by whether a team has had a game cancelled and this, in my opinion, is not a fair way of deciding a league.

My proposal, is that if a game is abandoned (without a ball being bowled) the 26 points on offer should be split - 13 points to each side. I am undecided on points systems for partially completed games but i feel 4 points is still unfair...possibly 8 points plus bonus points is an option.

I appreciate that this has been discussed before but i think that as the league becomes more and more competitive (a good thing!), promotion and relegation should not hinge on whetehr a team has had a game abandoned, but on their form over the whole of the season. The idea of slip dates (on Sundays / at the start of September) for abandoned games is a posibilty because the weather at the end of the season is usually far better than in May!

I must state that this is my opinion, but having discussed this with various teams over the past seasons, most are in agreement that the points system, when games are abandoned/half completed is unfair.

[prowsie]

Tim...league positions are not decided in May! :-D

[prowsie]

I agree that the idea of trying to get games completed is a good one but 4 points when a game is genuinely washed out is unfair. Unfortunately, teams are trying to get games played in conditions which are not good for cricket and ultimately ruining pitches...something some teams are not prepared to do. Why ruin a picth for 2-3 weeks for the sake of one game?

[prowsie]

Im in agreement that games should be played whenever possible, ourselves and Rickling waited patiently (while watching the cup final) until 5pm until deciding that the pitch was still too wet to play. It wasnt as if we saw the puddles on the square and then called it off. I appreciate that there could be a position where teams call off games for the sake of the points, but 4 points at the moment does not seem to add up. You only got 3 points on Saturday, but you had the opportunity to get 26...we on the other hand had no opportunity because we had no chance of playing.

Slip dates could work on the basis of 2 weekends at the end of the season being allocated to teams to fulfil fixtures (Sat and Sun). It is exteremly unlikely that more than 4 games are called off during the season and therefore, 2 weekends would provide enough dates for abondoned games to be played. It works well in the hockey league i play in and is something that could be adopted. :-?

[prowsie]

They would work if clubs knew about them, they then can leave the dates free. Assuming no fixtures are cancelled, friendlies can be arranged via the website/conference.